Episode 19: Special Agent in Charge Susan A. Gibson, DEA

Ms. Susan A. Gibson is the Special Agent in Charge of the Drug Enforcement Administration's New Jersey Division. Ms. Gibson's strong and diverse law enforcement background has afforded her successful working relationships with her state and local counterpruts, extensive experience in international drug trafficking organizations and the illicit sale of pharmaceuticals.

In February 1993, Ms. Gibson began her law enforcement career as a Police Officer and Narcotics Detective with the Mount Pleasant Police Department, South Carolina. In 1997, Ms. Gibson was hired as a DEA Special Agent and was assigned to the New York City Division's High Intensity Drug Trafficking Unit where she gained invaluable experience cond4cting both domestic and international narcotics investigations. Early in her career, Ms. Gibson was also trained as a Trauma Team Member where she responded to critical incidents ranging from job related shootings to death notifications.

In October 2005, Ms. Gibson was promoted to a Group Supervisor in the New York City Drug Enforcement Task Force, the oldest and most successful task force in the country, comprised of DEA Agents, New York Police Department Detectives, and New York State Police Investigators. Ms. Gibson led her group during the Fentanyl surge in New York City and was able to navigate between successful investigations and the safety of her group members.

In December 2010, Ms. Gibson was transferred to the DEA's Office of Professional Responsibility, Northeast Region, were she was part of a team assigned to an Executive Priority Investigation targeting corruption amongst international vetted units assigned to DEA.

In June 2014, Ms. Gibson was promoted to Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the New York City Drug Enforcement Task Force overseeing six active enforcement groups. In addition to her duties as an Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Ms. Gibson handled numerous critical incidents and worked closely with the Employee Assistance Program to provide assistance to employees and family members in need.

In September 2017, Ms. Gibson was selected for promotion into the Senior Executive Service as the Deputy Assistant Administrator in DEA's Diversion Control Division's Regulatory Program, with the responsibility over 1.8 million DEA registrants. In this capacity, she led the programs responsible for the regulation of all controlled substances within the United States and to ensme the proper registration for those who could access them. Ms. Gibson was also responsible for the control over the United States Aggregate Production Quotas, controlling the amount of raw material allowed to be disseminated yearly for the production of controlled substances used by United States citizens. Ms. Gibson traveled to the Republic of China as a representative of DEA to w.ork with the Ministry of Public Safety to advocate for the control of all Fentanyl substances produced in their country, ultimately resulting in the control of 32 substances by the Republic of China, and a review of a class control for Fentanyl. Ms. Gibson's tenure in the Regulatory Division also saw seven emergency scheduling actions for controlled substances, permanently controlling three designer drugs and the class control on all Fentanyl related substances. Ms. Gibson has testified in front of the United States Congressional House and Energy Committee on the dangers of synthetic drugs in the United States and the efforts the Drug Enforcement Administration has taken to combat the importatior,. and distribution within the United States.

Ms. Gibson is a 1992 graduate from the University of South Carolina with a degree in Criminal Justice.

YouMatter_SACGibson_0117.mp3

 

Intro Voices [00:00:05] Where do I go? It only happened once. I think I was singled out. The phone calls began about one month ago. What is hazing? Something happened to me when I was younger. I'm worried about my safety. He said he was sorry. Can someone help me? Where can I get help? Can someone help me? 

Intro Voices [00:00:31] This is “You Matter”, a podcast for the NYU community developed by the Department of Public Safety.

 

Karen Ortman [00:00:37] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to “You Matter”, a podcast created to teach, inspire and motivate members of the NYU community who have been victimized in some form or fashion and to identify resources both on and off campus that can help. I am your co-host, Karen Ortman, Assistant Vice President of Field Operations at the Department of Public Safety and a retired law enforcement professional.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:01:00] And I'm your co host, Oatile Ramsey, an NYU Stern alumni and a current graduate student at Gallatin studying inclusive economic development. And today we're dealing with very sensitive topics, so if any information presented is triggering or disturbing, please feel free to contact the wellness exchange at 212-443-9999 or NYU's Department of Public Safety and their victim services unit at 212-998-2222.

 

Karen Ortman [00:01:34] And welcome to my co-host, Oatile Ramsey. Glad to have you here today. Today we introduce Susan A. Gibson, special agent in charge of the Drug Enforcement Administration's New Jersey division. SAC Gibson, thank you so much for joining us today on “You Matter”.

 

Susan Gibson [00:01:52] Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be a great experience.

 

Karen Ortman [00:01:54] It's an honor to have you here today. If we could begin by you explaining to our listeners exactly what is the Drug Enforcement Administration, also known as DEA.

 

Susan Gibson [00:02:07] DEA stands for the Drug Enforcement Administration. We focus on federal laws, specifically Title 21. We’re a single mission agency, so we go after violations of the Controlled Substance Act. So we also not only engage in cocaine and heroin and the commonly known illegal drugs, but we also are part of the pharmaceutical community where we control the closed system distribution of pharmaceuticals in the United States.

 

Karen Ortman [00:02:38] So a single, did you say a single mission agency?

 

Susan Gibson [00:02:42] Yes, single mission agency where we focus on drugs.

 

Karen Ortman [00:02:45] OK. And the federal code.

 

Susan Gibson [00:02:47] The federal code, Title 21, the Controlled Substance Act.

 

Karen Ortman [00:02:51] OK. So tell us about your background. How did you get into law enforcement and how did you get into DEA?

 

Susan Gibson [00:02:59] It started a long time ago. I'd like to say I'm a lot younger than what I am, but I'm not. I began as a police officer. I was on patrol and I then was transferred into the narcotics unit. And I truly enjoyed working street level narcotics. I got to see firsthand the impact that addiction, drug selling, incarceration can have on a family. Yeah. So it really triggered my interest in narcotic work. DEA was hiring. And of course, as we all doubt ourselves, it's like, I didn't think I was special enough to get DEA, come on. And I actually applied and I got into DEA. My first post duty was in New York City. So I was in New York City for close to 19 years, about 19 years. And I didn't even know where the West Side Highway was.

 

Karen Ortman [00:03:53] It was before you came by.

 

Susan Gibson [00:03:54] Yeah, it was my first time.  But, you know, I ended up loving it. I love the city and I love to see if we can make it a little bit better every day.

 

Karen Ortman [00:04:04] Can you speak to your experience, even when you first entered the narcotics investigations area in law enforcement as a patrol officer, even up through to today as the SAC of of DEA, New Jersey. What is your response to those who say that narcotics offenses is a victimless crime?

 

Susan Gibson [00:04:29] I would - this question, whenever it's posed to me, the first thing that comes to my mind is, tell that to a parent, a family that just lost a son or a daughter to overdose, that they no longer have that child. And then ask me if that's not a victim. Not only are the overdose victims identified as victims in my mind, but it's also the family and the aftermath that they're destroyed. I have seen and I've attended many conferences catered to the siblings, the family that are still left behind, trying to cope with the devastation of losing someone in such a horrible way. And then they question themselves, 
“Did I do something wrong? Could I have done something different?” And it's really - there's numerous victims. There's first victims with the overdose and then there are secondary victims all around, especially with the introduction of fentanyl and the death rate. We have 72,000 people a year dying.

 

Karen Ortman [00:05:31] So you just introduced the drug fentanyl. What is DEA’s response to fentanyl or what is fentanyl?

 

Susan Gibson [00:05:42] Well, fentanyl is a synthetic opioid. There is a medical usage for fentanyl. A lot of surgeries are out there. Fentanyl is utilized for acute pain in different ways. Fentanyl has a medical use. However, we have clandestine labs out there that are producing fentanyl in a mass quantity, which drug traffickers who are - their bottom line is a bottom dollar. They can take powder form of fentanyl and it takes a small, small amount to mimic the same effects as like heroin, cocaine. So now they're using fentanyl and they're using it and they're pushing it out onto the public as, oh, this is cocaine, but it's really fentanyl. This is heroin, but it's really fentanyl. And it takes such a small amount of fentanyl to kill you. And that's what’s extremely scary right now. Right. They're putting it in meth. We've had situations where they have laced pot with it, whatever. I was asked a question, what's the most dangerous drug out there? And I said, whatever fentanyl is in. And then on top of that, they're also mimicking pills now that are just fentanyl and they're selling it. Oh, it's an oxy, it's a Percocet. And these people are unknowingly taking a pill with fentanyl. Well, if the wrong amount of fentanyl is in that pill that'll kill you.

 

Karen Ortman [00:07:07] Are there users or addicts who are actually seeking out fentanyl?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:07:14] From what we understand, those that are addicted seek the best high that's out there, so it's not so much that they're seeking fentanyl, whatever product that they heard has the best high. That's what they gravitate to. And unfortunately, fentanyl does have that effect, it’s a very strong synthetic. So you are getting a very big high off that if it doesn't kill you.

 

Karen Ortman [00:07:42] So how does the DEA differ from other federal agencies, particularly those who might handle narcotics as well?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:07:51] Well, this is our single mission. But also there's tentacles to drug trafficking. We also specialize in money laundering because there's a lot of drug proceeds out there that we have to track. And let's face it, if we take the proceeds away from some of these drug organizations, we can hurt them because they can't buy new product. We're also - we deal with a lot of violence, because there's a lot of violence associated with drug trafficking. So in New York here, we have a group that specialized in home invasions, robberies of drug crews. So we deal with a violent arena of targets. And then again, the whole side of DEA that people don't know is the whole diversion side where we control the closed system of pharmaceuticals and the distribution of them in this country.

 

Karen Ortman [00:08:40] So do you work with other agencies such as the FBI who might have their own narcotics task force?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:08:48] Absolutely.

 

Karen Ortman [00:08:49] So, how does that work with these other federal agencies in terms of partnering?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:08:56] My philosophy and DEA’s philosophy is that it's imperative for us to work together. We not only work with our federal partners, but we work with our local partners, whether it's state or local police departments. We have a great task force officer program where we deputize police officers from local police departments and they bring them into work with us in our task forces. We thrive on working with our locals and it's - we get a lot done with that cooperative relationship.

 

Karen Ortman [00:09:25] Sure. Sounds like a great partnership. Can you share with our listeners DEA’s footprint here in the United States and abroad?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:09:34] We have two hundred and thirty nine offices located in 23 different field divisions within the United States. We are actually present in 68 different countries with 91 offices throughout the world, which I think is a really large footprint. And then we also have our own seven regional laboratories that we actually test all the product that we get.

 

Karen Ortman [00:09:58] So back to the opioid epidemic we spoke about. You know, narcotics not being a victimless crime. You spoke of parents of children who have overdosed. You spoke of fentanyl and how significant the high associated with fentanyl is. Clearly, we have this opioid crisis in this country. What can you tell our listeners about opioids and why they're so addictive?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:10:36] Well, opioids is a class of drugs that includes heroin. It's a synthetic drug, so it's manmade. It's usually a pain reliever that's available legally by prescription. And those are the common terms like oxycodone, hydrocodone, morphine and others that are used in the medical community.

 

Karen Ortman [00:10:56] Does DEA respond to the opioid epidemic in terms of resources and not just enforcement? Are there any programs or initiatives that DEA is offering along the lines of addressing this problem?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:11:15] Well, obviously, DEA, our foundation are cases, right? Investigations into drug traffickers and also investigations into the medical community that are abusing their medical obligations. But there's another side of DEA that people don't know. We're out to to really get the message out there as far as demand reduction. Getting information out there to people so we can get to especially kids before they ever make that choice to go down a road that's hard to come back from. I know when I first got to New Jersey, I went to an elementary school. And, you know, we just wanted to basically let the kids know, know what you put in your body. Right. Know what's going to be good for your body and know what's going to be bad for your body. So I'm a big believer in getting to kids. We have hidden in plain sight, which goes around, actually, right now in New Jersey, where we put up bedrooms and we teach parents what to look for.

 

Karen Ortman [00:12:14] Oh, okay.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:12:15] Yeah.We have, you know, we also have the DEA.gov that you go to for any kind of information that you need regarding drugs and, you know, tip lines. So we're here to provide the information. We're out here to do as many conferences that we can. We're meeting with people, doing things like this just to make sure that the young people have a choice and they understand the decisions that they make.

 

Karen Ortman [00:12:37] Right. Is there information pertaining to these programs on your website?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:12:41] Absolutely. Just go on the Website. We have several Web sites that are available, DEA.gov, getsmartaboutdrugs.com, justthinktwice.com and campusdrugprevention.gov.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:12:56] I was wondering what the difference would be between a physical dependance and an addiction.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:13:02] We actually went through, because I wanted to make sure that I got this right, the National Institute of Drug Abuse. We went to them to actually get the definition. Addiction is characterized as an inability to stop using drugs, failure to meet family, social, or work obligations. Physical dependence can happen when a chronic use of many drugs, including prescription drugs, even if taken as prescribed. Believe it or not, we have a lot of people that have a dependance on opioids that really don't look any different than how we function in life. They have a dependance. We ran into a problem with senior citizens that were given an opioid, let's say, and they would take it every night, you know, just for pain. And now with the crackdown on prescription of opioids, it's like it's a population out there. Well, you know what? They didn't have an addiction. They still functioned. They were dependent upon it.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:13:58] What kind of signs should someone like myself be looking for, someone like my peers? I know you mentioned previously that you have a program where you’re telling parents, “Okay, this is what you should be paying attention to.” So I’d be curious as to what some of those things might be.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:14:12] They're similar to flu like symptoms. So if you see somebody that's starting to lose a lot of weight, that is lethargic. That's something to look for. Hygiene, to make sure that they're still keeping up with their appearance. But one of the biggest things about somebody that's in the throes of addiction is that this stuff's not cheap. So, you know, they're going to constantly be needing money. If you start seeing things that are missing in the home, if you're a parent and/or roommate, definitely a money factor comes into play because they need it to buy more drugs. But definitely like, you know, flu like symptoms. I think that's the easiest way to describe it.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:14:50] Thank you. And let's say we do kind of see these warning signs and these signposts. Where do we go if we're trying to seek help and sort of kind of remedy the situation?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:15:04] Well, a couple of things, sorry, didn’t mean to cut you off. Right now, the medical community, hospital emergency rooms, if an overdose victim is taken in, they're really catering to the aftermath now, whereas they're not just, hey, you're alive, leave. They're actually meeting with the person and giving them information as to how to combat their disease. Any police department out there, if you seek help, if you need help calling them, definitely can get you some guidance. But a big one, and I was honored to actually have an ability to work with them when I was in my previous job because I was in diversion down in Washington, D.C. is a substance and mental health - I'm sorry, I always say this wrong. It's the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration, also known as SAMHSA. Their Website is critical. They’ll, you can put your zip code in and it can dictate and it can tell you exactly where to go.

 

Karen Ortman [00:16:00] Wow, that's great.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:16:02] Yeah, SAMHSA Website, great organization. And they're there to get you guidance to where you need to go. And then, of course, DEA.gov. You know, the get smart about drugs, Just think twice, and campus drug prevention.org. Talk with DEA.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:16:19] Perfect. I've come across and I'm hoping you can elaborate some, I’m going to assume that I don't know anything about this, methadone. And so I've heard of methadone. And I'm wondering whether or not it's truly successful in treating opioid addiction and what role it might play. And really, how does that fit into some of the other resources you just mentioned?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:16:45] During my time as diversion, I was promoted in 2017, so as the deputy assistant administrator over diversion, where I was over the one point eight million registrants in the United States. So when I first got there, I wanted to do a deep dive into all this stuff. So I learned firsthand and I actually went to a methadone clinic and I went behind the scenes. And to understand exactly what is behind medical assistant treatment, also known as MAT. Methadone is definitely an option, but I think any medical assistant treatment has to be coupled with counseling. Both have to work together, because the medical system treatment, buprenorphine or methadone, whichever one you choose, along with that comes a lot of self care, a lot of counseling, family involvement. It's a fight, it's a struggle, so you can't just take a magic pill and think that that's going to solve all your problems. I do know methadone has had, if you do it the right way, has had a lot of great success. When I was there, I met with somebody who was on it for about 30 years and was able to retire successfully from his job, lived a normal life.

 

Karen Ortman [00:18:04] You can be on methadone for 30 years?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:18:06] He was scared to get off of it. He was scared that anything would trigger him. So he loved his life the way it was going. And he only has to go to the clinic once a month to obtain his methadone. And he continued on it.

 

Karen Ortman [00:18:20] And there's no limit to -

 

Sarah Gibson [00:18:22] It's up to the individual person. I also met another woman who was - she was a heroin recovering addict and she was on it for 12 years. And she's doing amazing. You know, but again, they're doing it right. And when you first get into the methadone program, according to the program that I went to, you're seeing either daily, depending on the level of your addiction and then you start moving out. So like you meet with him daily and then you get three days of supply that you can take on your own. Then you get six days and then you work your way out. But there's mandatory counseling at the clinic that I was at. There's mandatory counseling that goes with that.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:19:01] Thank you so much. I want to ask one more question.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:19:04] Yes. Absolutely.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:19:06] Before we get back to focusing more on you and some of your your journey in moving forward, I was curious as to - we mentioned that fentanyl is sort of a really terrible substance. Now they're kind of lacing it into all sorts of other things. Is there any way to identify it? As the people who are going in to purchase them and who happen to stumble upon, is there a way to tell, that's not right?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:19:38] No. And that's the scariest part, because you got people out there that are dying from this stuff and they have no idea what they're putting in their body. They have none. And that's the scariest part. If you take three, like, you pour some salt on a table and you take a little three little micro pieces of salt out, that's enough to kill you. So if these pills and anything that you're taking is laced with the wrong amount, it could be fatal.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:20:05] I'm wondering what the most kind of challenging and most stressful part of this job is and the role that you play.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:20:13] I believe in my job. I think I'm a lifer. You're never getting rid of me. I think I told somebody to Congress that, look, I'm not retiring anytime soon. That's for sure. I mean, I take it to heart. I'm upset about what's going on in this country and I'm committed to try and save more lives. I mean, when you have more people dying yearly than in the Vietnam War or more people dying yearly, that can fit into the Chicago Bears Stadium, we got a serious problem. And, you know, currently right now, I'm tracking at three thousand overdose deaths in New Jersey alone. And to me, you know, I stay up at night trying to think of new and inventive ways, always trying to think outside the box to do our job better. And it's very stressful when, you know. We know who some targets are and we do everything we can to get to them. And it's still not enough. But I do feel confident that I believe in law enforcement. And if you're violating these laws and if you're pushing fentanyl out there, sooner or later we're gonna get you. But it's very stressful knowing that there's people dying every year and I'm responsible for trying to prevent that. It's very stressful.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:21:35] I'd like to one, thank you for your service and thank you for everything you do, it's very important work. It is a really big challenge and it seems like you're really facing up to it and really kind of standing your ground. And I can say we can tell in this room that you're very impassioned, very dedicated.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:21:53] Well, thank you for what you're doing, because this is what we need to do. We need to talk about this ad nauseum like we have to get the word out there. So it's people like you, the thinking outside the box, let's do a podcast on this. This is great. Things like this, DEA never really did ten years ago, we were always in the shadows. And now it's like, you know, we're not in the shadows anymore out there.

 

Karen Ortman [00:22:16] Yeah. To the extent that we can minimize the stigma associated with addiction and addressing these issues, we are happy to do. Time and time again. SAC Gibson, you mentioned 3000 overdose deaths in New Jersey. Is that associated with a specific time period?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:22:44] It's approximately 3000 overdose deaths for the year of 2018. The death number for 2019 is still trending in the same way. So it's gonna be right around the same number as what it was in 2018. We just haven't gotten those numbers back yet.

 

Karen Ortman [00:23:02] Okay. So for any person listening who has an interest in joining the Drug Enforcement Administration, what advice do you have for them? And how would they go about beginning the process?

 

Sarah Gibson [00:23:15] Well, I think it's critical to get out there, too, the DEA is just not gun carrying, kicking in doors, arresting people. DEA has many components. We have intel analysts that we're constantly looking for the best and the brightest, because let's face it, you guys are teaching us old people. Well, myself, I'm very old. You guys are teaching us about the new waves and everything that we need to learn. We need young people in DEA to teach us about computers, the whole money laundering side to it. Bitcoin usage, all that cyber, all that.

 

Karen Ortman [00:23:47] Everything’s changing.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:23:49] It's crazy. And then we also have the diversion investigator, which again, that's the component of DEA that not many people know about where they're the ones that are responsible for seeing anything or following any pharmaceutical drugs that are diverted outside that closed system of distribution. That's a great job. We have a lot of program analysts. We're looking for anybody that wants to get on this, this mission. I'm looking for anybody that they can get with this mission that can help us move forward with it and tackle it.

 

Karen Ortman [00:24:24] And I encourage our listeners if they're interested to pursue this endeavor, because it’s certainly worthwhile. You do great work. I'm so honored that you spent your morning with us today to share this information. And I'm I'm proud to say that I know you. So thank you.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:24:49] Definitely. Same for me. Thank you so much for being here. You've given us a lot today. You've mentioned a lot. I'm wondering if there's something that maybe we haven't gotten to that's very important. We might have missed any last words you might want to say.

 

Sarah Gibson [00:25:03] Well, I think sometimes people view law enforcement in a way that we don't, we're not affected personally by all this stuff. I have a lot of partners that have lost children because of this work. We're not immune to it. And DEA, especially the agents, we don't work 9:00 to 5:00. We are out there when they're out there. And it's it's a mission where your heart has to be in it. And DEA, I'm really proud of the work that we do. It's not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. And I just would hope that people, when they hear anything about law enforcement, just understand that, you know, we're not immune to what's going on in this world either. And we're people just like you. And we're facing the same issues, same family issues. And we're we're facing the addiction epidemic just like everybody else with our loved ones. So I just want to thank you both for having me. And Karen, thank you for everything you've done in your career, too. I mean, you're pretty impressive yourself. So thank you very much, Karen. I truly appreciate it. And Oatile, you have a bright future in front of you, so I'm very excited to see what your future is going to turn out to be.

 

Oatile Ramsey [00:26:16] Thank you to our guest, SAC Gibson and to all listeners for joining us for today's episode of “You Matter”. Please share, like, and subscribe to “You Matter” on Apple podcasts, Google Play or Spotify.